am very happy that we have a conversation going on. I'd like to respond to Para's objection on the heading,initiated by me. Speaking for myself,I don't believe that Science is antithetical to Religion or vice versa. Things like Sati pratha,or even caste,have no religious sanction. They were evolved by vested interests for good economic reasons. Religion,like Science,is strong enough to encompass the Totality of life. But the unfortunate thing remains,Para, that Religious elites,throughout history,have aligned with political elites to divide the masses into religious groups and perpetuate their plunder of innocent people at large. There is nothing in Religion itself to advocate such division or plunder. Infact it is just the opposite. So pl excuse me if I have hurt your sentiments. And I fully agree with your fine write up. Our ancient culture and tradition has such gems covering the totality of life.We must wake up to these and enrich our lives.
Subject: RE: [IT-BHU-BatchOf1982] Re: Don't Turn Science into another Religion
I would like to present counter-arguments to a few of your points below:
·I don’t know about you, but while I prefer to be able to prove my point, if someone logically proves otherwise, I have no problem accepting I was wrong. I don’t understand why would this be different for anyone else.
·Are we qualified to express an opinion about “sati-pratha”, “dowry related bride burnings” etc., or not? If we follow your suggestion, only priests, alternate medicine practitioners, and occult science practitioners should be expressing opinions on such “esoteric” topics, since the rest of us would not be competent enough in these areas……
·If “logic comes into play only when we know entirely the working of a particular subject”, then it can never come into play because we don’t know “entirely the working of” any subject!
·Is there a reason why the coin came up heads (or tails) the particular time you tossed it? Yes, indeed. It is called probability. Exactly the reason why your man died of a heart attack that morning! Can astrology predict whether the next toss of the coin will show up heads or tails? If it can, then it can “predict the approx. time of departure”.
·So things can be proven immediately with intuitive knowledge? Should we throw away the Law books and let the Judges prove an accused’s guilt immediately with “intuitive knowledge”?
With certainly no malice towards anyone,
From: IT-BHU-BatchOf1982@yahoogroups.com [mailto:IT-BHU-BatchOf1982@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of B.V.RAM Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012 5:17 PM To: IT-BHU-BatchOf1982@yahoogroups.com; firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: [IT-BHU-BatchOf1982] Re: Don't Turn Science into another Religion
Whoa, Whoa, Boss you really seem to be worked up !!! Take some deep breaths and calm down. Unlike most of us, you have around 40 families to take care of, apart from yours.
The moot point Para here is that each of us (yours truly, at the head of the line please) have an insatiable desire to prove our point. Very often we forget the fact that we may not be competent enough to express an opinion especially when it comes to esoteric topics like religion, alternate medicinal treatments, occult sciences etc. Logic comes into play only when we know entirely the working of a particular subject - be it science, religion, medicine etc. A healthy man dies of cardiac arrest one fine morning ( and this is happening very often nowadays). The doctor can only say how he died and not why .... Then there will be a vague diagnosis like stress factor, emotional imbalance etc etc. The fact is that he died because his time was up on this planet. How is just a means of dying and not the reason. As to the reason, we still do not have any clue although astrology does predict the approx time of departure. So Para, let the logic based tribe flourish till they start believing in something which cannot be proved immediately without an intuitive knowledge. This may happen in this lifetime or may not also. Either way I think it is more important to listen to the various schools of thought and take our step as per our conscience and mental make up.
So as the new generation says, Chillllllllllll....... and Be happy.
Luv ( and with no malice to one and all).
--- On Fri, 8/3/12, PANCHAPAKESAN RAMACHANDRAN. wrote:
From: PANCHAPAKESAN RAMACHANDRAN. Subject: Re: [IT-BHU-BatchOf1982] Re: Don't Turn Science into another Religion To: "IT-BHU-BatchOf1982@yahoogroups.com" , "email@example.com" Date: Friday, August 3, 2012, 12:02 PM
Dear Jairaj, Pankaj and other contributors and silent readers.
Let me chip in the rationale behind my statements. First of all I take very strong objection to the subject heading stating dont turn science in to religion. I have been only advocating the fact that the subject lemon is not a story but worth investigating. Religion is a personal subject suiting individuals preference and taste and no one has the right to comment without adequate subject knowledge. Now getting in to the subject of allopathy homeopathy and ayurvedha. Again each form has its advantage and disadvantages. In the race to gain supermacy one form should not trample upon other using unethical standards. When I gave example of pfizer I was trying to only highlight the above. There is absolutely no problem in pfizer taking its profit and again this will be absolutely governed by market dynamics. If say Merck comes with a remedy cheaper than pfizer then pfizer has to act in making its drug cheaper. But today what is happening is that multinational drug companies employ the most unethical standards in pushing their products. The result they go out of their way to prove falsely Ayurveda or homeopathy doesnt offer any cure. They talk about presence of heavy metals like lead etc in Ayurvedic preparations which will make irreversible damage to the human anatomy. This has been proven totally false and it is nothing but machinations of drug majors to maximize their profit. In the same context it is sheer stupidity to dismiss the lemon story and compare it with a serious canard like some miscreants stabbing people etc etc. I know what happens with two sittings of chemotherapy for cancer patients. You will just abhor to see the patient after couple of sittings. Pankaj who told you that research is not being made on ayurvedha and homeopathy.? May be you dont have access to the latest trends in these form of medicine or you dont want to accept it. If you get a chance to visit INDIA please visit a place called Kottakal in the state of kerala. You will be amazed to see the goings there. Unfortunately with very little support from our bloody politicians and the excellent machinations of multinational drug companies the news doesnt come out and the progress is slow. As I stated earlier I dont blindly support anything unless I am pretty sure of the subject. Thanks to the support from my Ayurvedic and homeopathy doctlr friends I have seen talked to the patients who have been cured. While I have high regards for allopathy and its contributions one should not belittle other forms of medicine. Again jairajji I have no qualms in pfizer making money and getting back their dues for the research they spent. But it is illegitimate to adopt unethical means to maximize their profits. I am not sure if jairaj knows how many poor people in the district of medchal andhrapradesh have been subjected to indiscriminate drug trials against medical ethics. Many have been affected with irrerapirable damage. When we tried to fight for their cause for adequate compensation the drug majors were supported by none other than our corrupt politicians. The trials were conducted by none other than pfizer DR reddys lab etc. Mr jairaj how will you justify this when these gullible subjects were just paid paltry some. Again to highlight my arguements I would like to give the example of B T Cotton the hybrid cotton seeds developed by mosanto which miserably failed and the result farmer suicides in AP Vidarba region of maharastra. Again I dont talk about these subjects without any proof. I have been associated with gardening and the subject of bio pesticides in agriculture. in the guise of promising very high yield again multinational companies just thrust hybrid seeds which once sown the plants will not reproduce and the soil goes on irrepairable damage of not becoming useful for conventional seeds. Lastly I dont blindly oppose developement. I understand from one of my close friends in GE research centre in Bangalore that they are on to a breakthrough where they will be able to predict cancer several years ahead and will be able to cure. Finally I am aware there is nothing called free lunch. I myself suffer several times when my hard earned results of R&D in furnace and heat treatment is usurped by my own employees. What I wish to conclude is please dont dismiss things which are traditional and alternate forms of medicine etc.
While hard earned research and efforts needs to be adequately compensated at the same time UT should not infringe and trample upon other forms to enrich their profits illegitimately. Regards Para Met 82
From: avinash sahay Subject: RE: [IT-BHU-BatchOf1982] Fw: Don't be Fooled by Western Rationality or Cosmopolitanism To: IT-BHU-BatchOf1982@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 10:16 PM
Thank you, Pankaj, by your measured response.
If the law of the jungle still applies, the Western elites, and their collaborators throughout the world,including sub-Saharan Africa, should stop pretending to be "modern" and hold the torch for democracy, justice and freedom for much of the world,including their own countries where the level of inequality is almost as stark.
The tragedy is that, on a psychological level, we have ceded superiority to them in almost all walks of life and denigrated our rich culture and tradition evolved since antiquity.While the truth remains,as evidenced in the drying up and pollution of our water bodies and in the dismal quality of the air we breathe, not to talk of the utter malnutrition and disease of at least 50% of the global citizenry, that the model of "development" pioneered by the West has been an utter failure.In Russia and China,the loot and pillage of its own citizens is almost as stark,if cruder.
So we have to think hard and deep.The deepest malaise, seems to me, is the notion of private, individual enrichment,at the expense of the community.In our ancient way of life,in China, Mesopotamia(Egypt) or the Indian sub continent, primacy was always given to the Community.And the Dharma of the Community was to protect the least of its individuals.In moving away from this ideal,and losing itself in the paranoia of the Individual,with its skyrocketing Divorces and Depressions, I fail to understand the logic of private,individual enrichment,the sine qua non of the Western way of life.
From: Yadav, Pankaj (GE Intelligent Platforms) Subject: RE: [IT-BHU-BatchOf1982] Fw: Don't be Fooled by Western Rationality or Cosmopolitanism To: IT-BHU-BatchOf1982@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 11:43 AM
I agree with your sentiments here too, however I wouldn’t characterize institutions like BBC and Harvard as being consciously anti-East or anti-Africa etc…….
At the end of the day, we may be sophisticated, but humans are still animals living in a jungle, where the law of the jungle still applies. The only difference is that our modern jungle is an economic one, and economic might replaces physical might of a real jungle. We also follow the “food-chain” like the inhabitants of a jungle do. Those with the least economic might are at the bottom and have the least amount of say in their future, just as what happens in the animal world.
For the East, and the sub Saharan Africa to move up this “food-chain”, economic might is needed. As we get richer, we will get “stronger”, and the others will listen to us more and more. Our version of history will also then become more and more relevant.
Japan has proven this before, and China is doing it now. As for India – and sub Saharan Africa – well, we haven’t really moved up from the bottom of the heap all that much yet.
From: IT-BHU-BatchOf1982@yahoogroups.com [mailto:IT-BHU-BatchOf1982@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Ofavinash sahay Sent: Monday, 20 August 2012 2:04 AM To: IT BHU Cc: itbhu chennai Subject: [IT-BHU-BatchOf1982] Fw: Don't be Fooled by Western Rationality or Cosmopolitanism
--- On Sun, 8/19/12, avinash sahay wrote:
From: avinash sahay Subject: Don't be Fooled by Western Rationality or Cosmopolitanism To: Date: Sunday, August 19, 2012, 9:33 PM
This is to bring to your notice the refreshingly original book by Pankaj Mishra entitled From the Ruins of Empire.An interview of his appeared in The Hindu Magazine of August 19th.
In this book the author has given voice to the Asian perspective of history, as opposed to the Western perspective which resort to deliberate generalization and distort the rich diversity of Asian culture. For example, when they use the term Islamism,they distort facts because Islamism is itself such a broad swath, from West Asia, to the Indian subcontinent, to Indonesia where the Muslims even have Hindu names.The eminent anthropologist, K.S.Singh in his book, The People of India, found that Hindus share about 96% traits with Muslims in terms of ecology, settlement,food habits, occupation and the like.
Such simplistic theory to couch complex facts of life are deliberately concocted to hide the great imbalance of power between Western nations and the rest.By loudly invoking religion, culture,race or nationality, the Western theorists seek to mask the material basis of global inequality. Why some countries are rich and some,like sub-Saharan Africa, permanently poor.How the violence and genocidal wars waged by the neo-imperialists enjoy moral sanction and respectability thanks to the Corporate Media and the bully pulpits of mainstream institutions such as Harvard and the BBC, to which we, the "natives", pay unquestioning obeisance.
The dominant forces in the West,and their collaborators throughout the world, have deliberately used War as an ideology to pauperize the world because sale of armaments yields super-duper profits.Religion,race and nationality are used as masks to hide the real enemies.And,like fools, we remain divided while the racists and imperialists laugh their way to the bank.Unfortuately, the Media and repressive Govts throughout the world play ball while our water and air are despoiled and the majority of the world's populace wallow in malnutrition and disease.
We have to first understand our world before we can change it.And the unfortunate irony is that less than 1% drive this suicidal agenda while Rome burns.
Best regards, Avinash http://poshaning.blogspot.com/